Promoting cannabis commerce with a conscience Hudson Valley Cannabis Industry Association and New York City Cannabis Industry Association have benefited from David Holland's on-the-ground cannabis advocacy and Andrew Schriever's cannabis policy expertise They join Scheril Murray-Powell, Esq. to discuss their efforts to level the cannabis playing field so that the legacy operators are fairly integrated into the legal markets. Executive Producer: Scheril Murray-Powell Produced by PodConx Scheril Murray-Powell, Esq, - https://podconx.com/guests/scheril-murray-powell Andrew Schriever - https://podconx.com/guests/andrew-schriever David Holland - https://podconx.com/guests/david-holland New York City Cannabis Industry Association - https://ciamembership.org/ Hudson Valley Cannabis Industry Association - https://ciamembership.org/
Promoting cannabis commerce with a conscience
Hudson Valley Cannabis Industry Association and New York City Cannabis Industry Association have benefited from David Holland's on-the-ground cannabis advocacy and Andrew Schriver's cannabis policy expertise They join Scheril Murray-Powell, Esq. to discuss their efforts to level the cannabis playing field so that the legacy operators are fairly integrated into the legal markets.
Executive Producer: Scheril Murray-Powell
Scheril Murray-Powell, Esq, - https://podconx.com/guests/scheril-murray-powell
Andrew Schriever - https://podconx.com/guests/andrew-schriever
David Holland - https://podconx.com/guests/david-holland
New York City Cannabis Industry Association - https://ciamembership.org/
Hudson Valley Cannabis Industry Association - https://ciamembership.org/
Scheril Murray-Powell:[00:00:00] hello, everyone. Welcome to TURPs in the city. This is Cheryl Marie pal Esquire. I am the host of TURPs in city, and I have the show, which is fantastic. You can listen to our past episodes by going to TURPs and the city.com. I'm really excited to have as guests for this show. We have Andrew Shriver and we have Dave Holland.
Prominent attorneys in the New York area, both people that I consider friends and both are individuals that I lean on as I am building this organization with Steve de Angelo called the justice foundation, which focuses on legacy operators. As if you've been listening to the show, this season is all about my journey into New York.
And the people that I come across and people were instrumental. Cannabis legalization, but even beyond legalization, how do we build a robust industry? So you will not be disappointed with this show. . So welcome. Guys, welcome to TURPs in the city.
Andrew Schreiber: Thank you. Good to be here.
Dave Holland: Yeah, thank you for this [00:01:00] opportunity to meet up with you.
Scheril Murray-Powell: fantastic. Well, I'm excited about today's show. I want us to talk about, legalization. I think a good place to start is at the very beginning. Dave, I know you've had positions with a number of advocacy organizations and that's, that's an area of law that a lot of people don't promote.
In law school, as far as supporting nonprofit organizations, advocacy organizations. So, was that a pivot for you or is that something you started out in your career? Always having the advocacy is part of your legal practice.
Dave Holland: so it really kind of was an evolution of my practice. I had always had a great interest in the criminal justice system and since college. Worked with, in some capacity or another with district attorney's offices, I've been a an intern and a trial assistant to the us attorney's office in the Southern district of New York.
I've worked with judges. I was a prosecutor announced criminal defense attorney. And you saw cannabis. Was this constant that you could count on that was [00:02:00] behind a lot of different natures of prosecutions. So I got fascinated by it in 2004. I really had to. To get involved because I was introduced to a guy named Michael Kennedy who really is one of the great stalwarts of the civil rights and criminal defense communities, and was one of the first people to really stand up and say that just because people smoke pot, doesn't make them bad people.
And he really came out of that because he had started his practice in the Haight Ashbury area of San Francisco. And he was representing a lot of guys that were GIS coming back from Vietnam, who were all of a sudden getting dishonorably discharged for his fucking canvas. So he had met and was part of the formation of high times magazine with a guy named Tom facade, who was the founder of it.
And Michael was one of its instrumental people in his chief counsel until his death in 2016. I work with Michael from 2004 until 2000. And at the end of 2014 every day, working on high times related matters and working with normal and those things, and he's who really got me into advocacy. And since then, [00:03:00] that's, what's really promoted my interests.
And so I've worked with empire state normal, which is New York chapter of the national organization reform marijuana laws. And I've had the great privilege of co-founding with Andrew Shriver and Liz shields, both in New York city and the Hudson valley cannabis industry associations.
And so advocacy for me was an evolution. Not a career choice.
Scheril Murray-Powell: fantastic. And I'll be joining those organizations as well. Now that I'm, I'm based here in Harlem, as well as based in Florida. Andrew, I want to talk to you about that advocacy pivot as well. Cause I know you've. Practice built on many years of, of serving businesses and corporations. And I want to understand how that fit into your advocacy and incorporating that into your practice.
You have done significant work for the justice foundation as well. So I just want to highlight that and thank you for supporting our organism.
Andrew Schreiber: Of course. And, and thanks Cheryl again for having us on my only gripe is that I hate following Dave Holland when he talks about his [00:04:00] experience and it goes on for decades and, people quietly, walking along and learning. It's not a bad thing. Yeah. I don't mind, vegan is awake, uncertain occasions. So yeah, the short of it is advocacy has actually always been a part of, I think my DNA really ever since I was, I was a teenager I've always been involved in kind of, activist causes, but I would say that in my professional garb, I've done a lot of work with not-for-profits in addition to doing a lot of work on cannabis policy for really the past several years.
And when Dave and I met, it was a loving day in Albany. Now, some years back. We sort of recognize this great combination where Dave had had this sort of on the ground advocacy experience, dealing with due process issues, dealing with, th the fundamentals about how the war on drugs was basically used as a manner to perpetuate kind of racist institutions and enforcement.
Right. And Dave, dezman leading the cause on that. In the meantime, there were a group of us up in Westchester county that were studying policy. Cannabis policy in [00:05:00] particular and the Westchester county bar association from the cannabis lock committee with our friend, Jim Lando, also a great attorney who's on the board of the Hudson valley cannabis industry association with us.
And we realized that in order for advocacy to work and to work well, we really need to merge the elements of , how you get organizations working and moving in a direction that is effective and how. How you scale them and sort of bring in the right people to breathe the policy through, for me, my experience came from, I was formerly the, I used to be the president of legal aid society of Westchester county.
And I would say that that was probably in my legal career, kind of a, a cornerstone of advocacy for me, obviously that's an extremely important cause dealing with processing criminal protections And then I've done a ton of work on both the county bar associates in New York state bar association in terms of policy.
But all the focus has really been on the question of not so much. What happens when we get to legalization is a conversation we were having several years ago where Dave and I. I started seeing the light was the idea of what happens [00:06:00] after legalization and how do you make sure all the promises that have been delivered , get fulfilled and really what our focus has been.
And it's merging, I think kind of the skillset with Dave's vast encyclopedic knowledge of really all things, cannabis and justice related for the last couple of decades. And I guess there are a few of us who have been swimming in the policy and non-profit arena. So for us, it was really a good marriage to, to be able to find a way to project nurse industry, voice
Scheril Murray-Powell: Well, yeah, , that's fantastic. And you both spoke about the criminal justice system and the implications there. Dave, , you spoke about the fact that after you started practicing law, you started seeing a trend of. These criminal cases with cannabis charges, marijuana charges at the crux of it, like is, is the initiating point with the legalization work that you're seeing with Marta and everything.
Are we going to see a society where, you know, people who wouldn't have gotten the chance to. [00:07:00] Develop their careers and build families. , do you envision that type of society that now that we've taken out that root cause piece that society as a whole is going to change because people who would have been plucked out or had this blemish on their records, they're now able to live like normal lives.
Can we talk a little bit about what that looks like and what you're anticipating.
Dave Holland: Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a great question that, that doesn't have that straightforward answer except to say what brought about legalization in New York particularly was in the wake of all the George Floyd and the black lives matter movement, and people were finally really organizing and speaking out saying we've been disproportionately impacted every which way to Sunday.
And I started to draw upon, my personal history in a criminal justice system, where as somebody said, this, the quote unquote odor of marijuana became, a Swiss army. And it was the all purpose tool to be able to get criminal investigations, arrests, and decimation of neighborhoods in [00:08:00] short order.
You started to see people acknowledged that maybe there is a disproportionate law enforcement practice out there. And people started to draw upon the number of arrests in New York city and in New York state and then across the country. But in New York state, we are finding an 87.5% of all arrests where people of color.
And that is just wildly disproportionate to the fact that, that people of all colors and particularly Caucasians and blacks and Latinos consume at the same rates. So it was clear that people were getting a free pass at the expense of others. And that really took hold. I think, in the negotiations leading into 20, 20 and 2021 with what brought about Marta, which is marijuana regulation, taxation act that New York passed.
If you read the preamble, , it says very specifically that the reason for it was that there was not only a disproportionate impact, but it was blacks and Latinos, particularly that were disproportionately impacted. And that therefore legalization is due to redress the harms of the drug. And by that they've established a cannabis fund.
[00:09:00] They want to reinvest in the communities that lost all their infrastructure and dignity and support and, and community control and start to reinvigorate those communities. So very much at the heart of your question in the heart of the the MRTA is this restorative justice. And so it includes people who actually, who have convictions are going to be prioritized to possibly get to licenses.
And that is a big factor in people will have records expunged, and they will have different things happen to them. They put them on a more even footing. But as Andrew's gonna, I'm sure touch upon when he gets there to, the purpose of unlock is to what do you do about the legacy operators who may not fall in those other categories that may not also be social equity applicants, as broad as that term may define, how can we do something for them?
And that's what we have been really committed to. Is was trying to make sure that everybody's included it. Even those people who have run the market for the past 50 years, who may not be part of , the new matrix of calculations of getting people , to the markets.
Scheril Murray-Powell: Well, thank you for [00:10:00] mentioning unlock, which is the unified legacy operators council. And you're right unlock this challenging, the limited scope of the justice involved definition. So thank you for that. Call out Andrew. I didn't want to cut you off.
I really want to hear your response as well.
Andrew Schreiber: this is a topic that has been sort of in the forefront of our thinking and conversations now for a couple of years and you really need two things to get, right? You need a.
Right.
And the MRCA is actually fairly promising because replete within the act are the right policies in terms of reversing the impacts of the war on drugs and making sure that people were disproportionately impacted, do in fact, get those opportunities and erase the stigma.
, the harder part is that we have about a 90 year to a hundred year history that has now spanned four or five generations of ingrained false. Right upon which this sort of war was built. Dave and I have a stump speech really sort of originated by Dave's research. And I've kind of since ripped it off a bit, but it takes back to the origin of, of [00:11:00] cannabis prohibition, which was, led by this guy, Harry Anslinger and people might've seen movie about Billy holiday, how he was the villain in that movie.
And based on all the things we've heard, it didn't seem that exaggerated , it was blatant. It was black. Men are going to want to sleep with white women and white women are going to want to do the same if you smoke this.
And it was, and it was that bad. And, and for 30 years in charge of policy, so all that was ingrained. So naturally you get to this 87% arrest rate or inbox. I remember the report in New York city was eight to one as of 2018, the arrest rate. So the hard part is not just putting it on paper.
We didn't do that. The legislature did a good job. The hard part is changing the hearts and minds. Right? You need to do two things. You need to get to everybody. That's not part of the legacy market and not within New York city to understand the truth about the. In terms of adult use is comparison to alcohol.
For example, being a safer and healthier alternative just by way of a discussion point, but also to clean out that the reason we've been fed that we've been fed really doesn't have to do it. And then it has to do with these issues of race. Now that's hard, it's a hard sell until you show people what the data , is.
And [00:12:00] the more people get accustomed to that and learn that this was really just about a way of institutionalizing a means by which you could prosecute people based on the color of their skin. , fair-minded people start to realize that , this was all kind of a sham. So you gotta do that and bring it back to unlock.
I was talking to one on one of the legacy operators. Who's part of the unlock organism. And I said to him, you guys are marginalized and we have to find a way for you to get in to the market. But beyond that, you have to think of it in these terms, if it weren't for the legacy market, what otherwise was part of human civilization, literally since the Dawn of recorded socialization, cannabis used for medicine for for recreation, for ceremony, I mean it spans, spans the spectrum.
All of a sudden it's illegal worldwide. And if it weren't for the people who decided to keep continuing to keep that light lit, The people from whom, all of us who were not in a legacy market were able to get our cannabis. In the meantime that flame could have been extinguished that dozens of years and the benefits of this plant could have as last a hundred years demonstrated.
And I said to [00:13:00] them, rather than thinking of you as criminals, you need to enter the system. People really need to start adjusting this. You guys actually kept this thing alive. , when we get back to a normalcy about it, people look back on them as the people who sort of kept the sacred texts from being stolen.
Scheril Murray-Powell: Absolutely. , I think that's how history will remember them. Sometimes when I'm speaking, I talk about pirates and how we've kind of romanticized a pirates and people dress up as pirates for Halloween and things like that. And it's not outside of the realm of possibility that these legacy operators or potential or pencil potentially smugglers and other people who preserve that heritage of cannabis use.
Commercialization, distribution, et cetera, will be looked on just the same way you look at, pirates now. So I, I think it's definitely a great point with regards to the legacy industry, helping to preserve something that is so enriching to life from a wellness perspective, from an industrial perspective, and they [00:14:00] deserve to participate in this new industry.
The best part about it is we have both of you as attorneys. Focused on ensuring that legacy operators do get a fair shot that they do understand. The laws say and where there's opportunity to improve the laws. And, and I thank you for your work in that area.
And as I said earlier, I have leaned on, on both of you to, to support my legacy guys and and give guidance as far as the way forward. And again as we know, when, anything's possible, one session is back in. So with that said, What do you think should be our key strategies going forward as we approach this session coming up next year?
Dave Holland: From my perspective, legacy is everything right? Because if you can't incorporate them, they become your competitors. So there has to be some assimilation process. So one of the things I've been working on it has been really looking to create a comprehensive amnesty program . It's a very involved process, but they'd no longer have to look over their shoulder. [00:15:00] And those people that now run the regulated market, get to benefit from some of the knowledge of how do you simple things like handshake agreements actually work out in a, in a legalized setting.
How is credit set up? How is fronting like people used to do? I fronted announced and I got paid the guy later, all those things had unwritten rules and handshakes that governed the world's largest marketplace. That information, not necessarily who was, who, but how it was done. What are the trust factors, whether the logistics of bringing in loads to make sure that supply is always available, that's helpful information that should be assimilated.
And with people able to provide insights into how to make a successful market transition over the only people that can do that are the people that have run it. And that's legacy operators who are not necessarily going to fit into the other pigeonholed categories or social. So I think for me, that's something that's extremely important in the upcoming session and something that Andrew and I have spoken about a great line because I'm coming out with yet another revised plan on how to do that.
So hopefully we'll see [00:16:00] that conversation at least take place in a greater
Scheril Murray-Powell: Excellent. And I want our our listeners to know that they can support you by reaching out to the Hudson valley cannabis industry association and swells in New York state cannabis industry association. So they can get involved in this work that is critical with regards to, defining legacy, having like legacy.
Defined as a, a codified term ensuring that there's the amnesty program to protect the individuals who have this knowledge and they're willing to come forward and share it, but they just don't want to be harmed in the process and their families to be harmed in the process.
Dave Holland: So it's there we are the New York city cannabis industry association and why cci.org. And then there's Hudson valley. There is a New York state cannabis industry association is not affiliated with us and they're not really off the ground. And I don't think they ever will get off of. But just, I want to make people are clear that, look for Andrew's name and my name when you, if you go searching it out to make sure you're with the right organization. we [00:17:00] are putting together a state organization, but we haven't named it yet.
Andrew Schreiber: I'm thinking of Dave's picture on the label.
Scheril Murray-Powell: I just want to say thank you for that clarification, because we want our people to end up in the right place. One thing we always stress is as people want to know how to get involved, right? So, there are existing advocacy organizations and even in my work as justice getting involved in this market, it's about working with the existing organizations, not cannibalizing their work and taking over for them.
It's really working collective. Leaks so we can be more mighty. So I just want to highlight that. And also if you want to get involved, if you, every Congress person has a district office and every state assembly person or Senator, they have district offices, you don't have to go all the way to the Capitol to make the difference.
The key is to get involved with these organizations, understand their legislative priorities and as a voter as, as a city. You can share your thoughts and say, this is important to me. Cannabis legalization is important to me not having a dual market [00:18:00] where legacy and legal are, in conflict. That's important to me and really help us to explain to our rule makers, whether they're legislators or regulators, why this is an important issue.
So thank you for calling that out. Andrew. I think you were going to say.
Andrew Schreiber: Oh, I guess just to give a little bit more flavor about these associations and I think , how they. Dovetail pretty well , with the way you're describing the common mission. What we found when we started the associations was that there was a lot of focus on legalization and getting law.
Right. But then it was what happens after. And what we wanted to do was help to be, I suppose, a guide in terms of where we've been in terms of you policy, but the real, the engine, the heart of an organization like ours. And I think that this is true also for for unlocking particular, is that it's a member driven.
Organization. And what do I mean by that? We say we make policy Dave and me and Lizzie who founded. We, we, we contribute, but we don't make the policy. Our members get together and we have [00:19:00] committees that are devoted to different topics. How are we gonna deal with banking? How are we going to deal with legacy?
How are we going to deal with making sure that there's enough capital through incubators and entrepreneurs getting together? In addition to banking, what are the rules going to be on home? Grow? How are we going to look at medical? What are going to do unemployment? All of these topics people are interested in and what happens is our members get together and we have virtual forums where they run these committees themselves.
We create some debris points of chairs. And then what happens is these conversations lead not only to people getting to know each other in a very substantive way. I like to say we trade ideas instead of just trading business cards. And that's really how you want to work with right? You need the people that are going to be part of your.
Part of your, your ecosystem, whether that's a professional ecosystem, because you want to be an entrepreneur in the space, or you're an advocate, we're all mingling together and swimming together. And the point is that through these conversations, develop these relationships, but we actually developed concrete policy.
Our committees put out these papers, authored by our members whose only criteria to be part of it. And to be part of that exercise is it's not your education. Doesn't matter where you come from. [00:20:00] Doesn't matter. You need to be respectful. You need to be guided by the. And you need to be working toward consensus.
And the objective is by putting out all of these statements that our members put together. Not only do we, I think create influential policy, but we're listened to, and a seat comes to us because they know that there's a voice that speaks to at least the center of what we all agree on. And there may be things that we disagree on and that's okay.
We're actually sort of foment descent, but when we come up with a United voice saying that as an industry, Taking approach X, Y, or Z is going to help all of us, with that common voice brought together we're much stronger. And when we, when we interlock with other organizations like online, like justice, who are coming at it from from more specialized.
Focuses the point is that we need those organizations with those specialized focuses because we don't pretend to represent every point of view or speak for every point of view. And we need organizations that are focused specifically on how do we crack getting legacy in. And by the [00:21:00] way, the one thing I want to note is that it should not be me and Dave for many reasons, not the least of which is we were not legacy operators.
So the legacy operators need to be the one controlling their destiny. Where do. To be supportive, but not to take the lead in that conversation. Right. That conversation needs to come from within.
Scheril Murray-Powell: That's fantastic. And that's exactly justices approach with the forming of, of unlawful unified legacy operators, counsel, their website is unlock without the K U N L O C. now.org. Use UN LLC now.com. They go to the same place, but w in working with their leadership and unlock, it was all about giving them autonomy, having used their own voice, and they are now growing and adding on their own members.
So if you are interested, please visit their website. They are very. Brilliant. Men and women who are developing policy but also creating a support network for their brothers and sisters in the legacy market [00:22:00] to come forward and take part in this legal cannabis industry. But with that said, there's that support of Andrew Shriver and Dave Holland to make sure that they have the guidance needed to do it in a legal way, in a way where they will optimize their results.
And what. We were just talking about was optimizing results and to optimize results, you need to contribute to the origin and couldn't be one of the ingredients and making the stew and the work that's done legislatively. These two attorneys met in. Of all places from this area in New York city, but they came together in Albany because they were doing the work.
They were trying to put the ingredient in the stew at the beginning with the, the legislation. So it's very important work. I want to talk a little bit about something that Dave brought up. That was a really quick point, but really caught my attention and his speaking of preambles in his introduction.
And it's how [00:23:00] his work and understanding of military veterans and the number of them who had gotten dishonorably discharged due to cannabis use. So they serve their countries may have even served in wars. And they are dishonorably released from the military service, lose their benefits because of cannabis use.
Can we talk a little bit? I don't think we speak enough about that. I know we talk about veterans and post-traumatic stress disorder quite a bit, and, and that's a very important issue in our industry and I support veterans. The general counsel for butts profess on founder of, of the unprescribed.org.
But yes, please, let's talk about dishonorably discharged people and what that means for them and their families. And, and is there a remedy
Dave Holland: Oh, my gosh. I so great all the work you've done with veterans and they are truly the unsung heroes and they are treated miserably due to a completely misguided [00:24:00] federal policy on how we should deal with cannabis to begin with to be dishonorably discharged means do to lose your your benefits to lose the health.
So lose the USA eligibility for in low cost insurance for veterans to lose your ability to go on through the GI bill to get a further education. It is the end of opportunity for so many. And for me, I really got started in it. As I said earlier, in 2004, I started working with Michael Kennedy and high times, and that's 2006 and seven, particularly.
I started to get these calls of guys calling me from VA hospital. And they had just been back from Iraq or Afghanistan and it was heartbreaking and they would say, all that happens. I sit in a wheelchair and I'm a double amputee and I'm just being given, non-stop opioids to a point I just want to die.
And they would be crying into the phone and I would be crying into the phone cause it was just horrendous. And they kept saying, marijuana is the only thing that makes me feel better. How can I go [00:25:00] about becoming a medical patient? And that's where I really started to get very involved in. Okay.
More is needed here. These people, you gotta be 21 before you can drink, but at 18, your country could send you off to war to go into war zones and experience the most horrific of dangers. And to hear them come back and there's nothing, there's no safety net. All there is, is opioids and a VA hospital where you're warehoused away until you basically become a vegetable or die.
There's a greater quality of life that these people want to live. And that. As a nation and as advocates. So that's really where I got involved in it. And and I have continued to work on with, with vets in different variety of managed. So it's not just PTSD. It really does prove to be a pain killer.
It really does help people to avoid the vicious, insidious effects of alcoholism and homelessness and all those people who also have suffered as veteran. If you talk to a lot of them and they have war related, PTSD and [00:26:00] anxiety related issues, if they're just their way at the bottom of the bottle was the only way that they could find me find peace.
And that's a terrible, one way ticket of swirling the drain for the rest of your life. And cannabis really proved to be a much more effective relief source, both for, for mental and physical anguish. And I've just, I really changed tremendously when I started to see that.
Scheril Murray-Powell: well, thank you for your service. That's that's really critical work. Those who paid that huge, huge cost of, of defending our freedoms. And I know sometimes we were a little skeptical about how free we are in, in America, especially with prohibition and, and some of the horrendous.
Brutality police brutality issues and, and things like that. People still incarcerated to the state for CA for the plant for cannabis, but, we have a certain amount of freedom in the United States. And the reason for that is because of our United States military. And we need to treat them better than that.
So thank you for your service to our veterans. Andrew, did you want to add to that?[00:27:00]
Andrew Schreiber: well, I, I guess, Dave talked about the history of the recent history of this, which is really staggering. But I do want to say that there, there are some sort of, reasons for optimum. And this is really going to happen more when we get to the federal legalization. As, as, as we know, there has been legislation offered in Congress to decriminalize and just basically, declassify cannabis so that it would be nationally legal.
And part of the Moore act was also a section on expungement of people's records. Now I did, I do know that. This was reported a couple of months ago that there was a bill and I'm not sure where it stands, but there was a bill introduced for current military members to treat Canada. As as they would treat alcohol in terms of penalties or used so that it would no longer be grounds for dishonorable discharge.
So I think this goes back to what we said a little bit earlier. This is about changing hearts and minds. It's about bringing people around to like, oh, okay. This thing that has been this, this demonized thing, it is [00:28:00] actually not been the bad thing at all. And it is, I mean, general who really studies the issue might find.
That if you're going to have a, a mess hall or, an officer's club that serves a lot of martinis, they might actually be better served by having an offering with an officer's clubs serve cannabis, because there's going to be fewer fights coming out of that officer's club at 2:00 AM.
Scheril Murray-Powell: right.
Absolutely. It would be relaxed
Andrew Schreiber: yeah, exactly. So when they studied the issue, I think they'll get there, but the trends are in the right direction, change doesn't happen overnight.
Scheril Murray-Powell: Thank you for that optimism. Another issue that I don't hear enough about this kind of near and dear to my heart is the people who lost custody of their children due to cannabis. So you know how you have your arrests and you have the incarcerations, but there are a significant amount of people who weren't incarcerated, but they did lose custody of their children and their lives were permanently disrupted and the children's life.
Permanently disrupted and they may have suffered abuse as a result. Any thoughts on a potential remedy or what that could look [00:29:00] like or how we can repair? I know this is family law and cannabis touches every single area of law, but I just want to see if there were any thoughts.
Andrew Schreiber: , the MRTA actually does a tremendous job. Of making sure that they address issues exactly like that. So, and, and it spans, as you said, across different areas. So it's not going to be part of going forward. We're not going to have that certainly in New York state, the fact that somebody might choose to, to use cannabis, it's just not going to be a a criteria.
And these types of decisions in terms of, and by the way, just it spills over. But in the labor sector, that's true too. In New York, you're not convenient. It's not going to be a grounds to penalize and include because they use cannabis, obviously subject to, safety issues and, and work on the judge, doing it on the job and all that.
But yeah, the short of it is, New York and I think other jurisdictions are going to, there are copycatting New York statutes and what are going to get these things. Right. I don't know that there's anything that you can do to repair. Those, I mean, once, once adapts less, this [00:30:00] kid or a mom has lost her kid, four years ago, that's a long road back.
But I guess again, I'm sort of just, maybe starry-eyed about the future and say that even in those situations where now people are opening their eyes and recognizing that what mom or dad did was really not necessarily a bad thing. And that this was really unfair. It actually, it does create at least a basis for, for there to be some, some renewed dialogue for those families who have been.
Scheril Murray-Powell: yeah. I type theory that the reason why I have so much difficulty finding old school black even Latino cannabis active. Is because of that, that custodial risk that custody risk. So I've been, cause I asked, what, there's Bobby tonight and there's a Rosenfeld and some of these, OTs in, in cannabis.
And I'm like, where were, were the, black people who were there on the front lines with you, advocating for legalization. Well, this is earth. This was on another show that I did, but Irv said, he said they were around, but they didn't stick. [00:31:00] For some reason they didn't stick. And I think a lot of it has to do with, of course the mass incarceration issue, but I also.
Yeah, they didn't stick because it was a tremendous risk to their, their families and their children. So I'd like to see a little bit more emphasis put on that area of loss and any, and some types of attempts to repair. So we've touched upon so many issues today. Thank you so much for your time. I always close out the show with a couple of questions.
The first question is what can I do? What can turf in the city? What can the people listening to D today do to support you and help you? I know we talked about, we spoke about a few strategies earlier with, going to your district offices, but like immediately, if people are like, I want to do something now, what's, what's the best thing that they can do to support you guys and with your initiatives.
Andrew Schreiber: I'm going to, I'm going to give a short answer and then I'll be curious, but I eat the short event and it's [00:32:00] not a shameless plug as much as it is a open invitation. Joint and joining us on the New York city or, or Hudson valley cannabis industry association, you can go on the webpage, which full disclosure we're, we're in the middle of sort of revamping our webpage.
So it's a little bit stale, but the action that's going on in the organization is actually very, very much alive. So, you can scroll down to the bottom of the page. You can sign up for our, our e-blasts and that you can just know when things are happening. That's the best way to be informed. And, and if you feel inclined, feel free to join as a member, the benefit of being a members, you get that's your ticket to joining any committee that you'd like, but if you'd like, you can, you can touch base with us offline.
I know that when the program gets published, there are notes with it about how you can contact us. And the short of it is the best way to become involved is to, is to create your own involvement. That's what these organizations are designed. So we're, we're not going to recruit you and say, go do this.
We're going to say, what topic are you interested in? Who would you like to start getting into a conversation with those conversations? To bring it back to what Obama said when he was running in the original, in the original election for him. I remember it very, very [00:33:00] candidly him saying, because they were talking about, is it, how, how, how, what a great wordsmith he was.
And he kept coming back to words matter, guys.
Scheril Murray-Powell: Be intentional with them.
Andrew Schreiber: Yeah. Yeah. So, and what you're doing is, we always see as our tagline join the conversation, I mean, and you are the conversation, so keep doing what
Scheril Murray-Powell: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for your friendship and, and Dave, what, what are your thoughts on the same question as far as people supporting you?
Dave Holland: well, it's not supporting us as much as support the conversation. It starts separating fears from the. Start walking into conversations, start walking into those conversations about, alcoholism and look at the numerous studies that show hereditary and generational decline. What alcohol does to a family.
And then just ask people to prove show one test that, one study that proves the same with cannabis. They don't exist one because they haven't been studied, but two and you don't have this. Generational dependence on a [00:34:00] substance with cannabis like you do with alcohol and other things. So those are the fears that need to be separated from the facts.
And that's what the most important thing to support us is just support the dialogue. Just have people talk about it and talk about it in a way with meaningful approaches to it. Like Andrew was said, words have meanings and if we're going to go back to Obama, we in the ethicacy side, when he said, yes, we can, we became, yes, we can.
Scheril Murray-Powell: Yes. Yeah. Yes. We cannabis.
Dave Holland: and, and it, and it's happened, I mean, you've watched 37 states now look at the power of bringing the realistic conversation to the table rather than just continuing to film and propaganda. So that's what it's all about. Just keep it real. As they say, bring the real facts to the table in any discussion.
That's all it needs to be done that supports us every, which way to Sunday.
Scheril Murray-Powell: Well, thank you. And I, I want to say the same thing. Thank you for your friendship and I'm thank you both for your work. People don't realize that, to get to 20, 22, you had to be in two thousands, the two thousands, the, nineties, the eighties the. [00:35:00] Taking the risk of being ostracized by your profession or being ostracized professionally because they, they thought cannabis was hokey, not, not a legit area to pursue as, as an attorney.
So, I know you guys you truly earned your stripes. So to get us here and we thank you for it. My last question is something I always ask my, my guests as well. If you could meet anyone on the planet, living, living on the planet currently if you can meet anyone that you think would magnify your work and amplify your work, who would that person be?
Cause I do believe that there are very few separate degrees of separation. So maybe someone's listening to make that happen for you.
Dave Holland: Boy, that's a tough question.
Scheril Murray-Powell: We've had, we've had a few really interesting choices.
Dave Holland: I CA I take it from one perspective, which is the person I most want to sit down with is John Bayner saying,
how dare you
Scheril Murray-Powell: That's the first, go ahead, please explain.
Dave Holland: Yeah, [00:36:00] because he was such a prohibitionist, Renegade. He was a guy that created the privatized industrial privets pro private prison industrial system, if you will, to some degree.
And then he jumped ship and he gets a $400,000 a year board seat on a cannabis company. How can you live with yourself knowing that what you have left in your wake is exactly what we've all been fighting against for years. And you shamelessly go out there as if it doesn't. I would like to sit down and have that conversation cause through him and maybe whatever catharsis he went through, he can start to enlighten other people.
Maybe I was wrong.
Scheril Murray-Powell: that's awesome. Yeah, because again, even, people can change where we're trying to change minds and hearts. So it's possible he went through some type of metamorphosis, but there was a lot of harm and damage along the way to get there. So let's talk about that. That's a real conversation. I love it.
And for you, Andrew,
Andrew Schreiber: So I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheat a little bit and then bifurcate my answer. I'll tell you the first, the first thing that popped into my head is, is it's less grandiose. It's [00:37:00] really, I get, I am most rewarded by a conversation with somebody who is coming to this whole topic with skepticism, but a willingness to listen, right?
Anytime I get, and many times those will be mayors and municipal officials. And so they're always, my door's always open to them, even if they come in thinking cannabis bad, it's basically like just let's let's do the ground. Accurate data and, and honest exchange. And, and that'll often get you there, but here's why I'm cheating because I like Dave's answer so much.
And the person who actually still kind of owes us one is Kama Harris. And the reason I'm saying that, because we all heard. Right. I recall whether it was the first hundred days type of thing, but we heard that we were going to be descheduled nationally. And we heard that I was, when she campaigned on the issue, she spoke the truth that this is about enforcement, not about the plant.
I don't blame her. She's not in a position to make the decision, but it seems to be a promise that those of us who, were sort of
rooting, [00:38:00] uh, politically.
Yeah, and certainly for that initiative, it's not something we've forgotten about. And, and the sooner you get there, the sooner you get to a nationally, a healthier place, because it's going to take years to erase the stigma.
It's going to take probably a generation to really, it's not the legacy people right now who are going to benefit the most, it's their kids and their grandkids.
Scheril Murray-Powell: That's a really, that's a really good point. What we're doing now. It has multi-generational impact. And those are really great answers to that question. I just want to close out and say, thank you so much again for your work. Thank you for being on TURPs in the city. Those of you listening. If you want to learn more about the work of Andrew Schreiber, Esquire and Dave Holland Esquire, please check our show notes.
We thank you for listening today and tune in for the next episode of TURPs in this. Going to www.termsinthecity.com. Thank you.